Is it true that you first met Robert backstage at Bowie's Madison Square Garden bash? Who approached who? What was the scene like on the night?
Yes, this is pretty accurate. Robert was part of Bowie’s 50th Birthday concert at Madison Square Garden in January 1997. He performed two songs
with David – ‘The Last Thing You Should Do’ from ‘Earthling,’ and the classic ‘Quicksand’ from ‘Hunky Dory.’ They were both stellar; genuine
highlights of the gig. After the show there was a huge party downtown at the loft of artist Julian Schnabel, where most of the cast and crew
gathered once we were done with our respective duties. Though Robert had rehearsed with David and the other guest artists before the gig, we
didn’t actually meet until this party. And what a meeting it was.
The Birthday Show was probably the heaviest production I’d played a part in up to that point in my career. After weeks of preparation, and
finally the show itself, it was time to let off some serious steam. The mood at the party was jubilant; all who had been a part of the show,
and a few extra celebrity friends, were in attendance. So, I liberally sampled the various libations on offer, and made the rounds with DB
guitarist Reeves Gabrels. By the time I got to Robert’s end of the room, where he was camped out at a table with director Tim Pope, I was
out-and-out shitfaced. In all honesty, if I hadn’t been in that state I probably wouldn’t have found the nerve to approach him. I broke the ice
by asking Robert about the video to ‘Lullaby,’ where he becomes a spider. I tried to get him to tell me what made him think up such a thing,
and what it was like to have all those legs and what not – all the while trying to keep my composure in the face of overwhelming drunken giddiness.
He and Tim probably thought I was bonkers. They probably still do.
Would you consider yourself a serious Cure fan? If so, are there specific records you've enjoyed both as a fan and as a producer? Was the
Cure on a wishlist of bands for you as a producer?
I would call myself a fan, but maybe not a serious one. When I started out I lived for a time with an all-female band in Dallas, Texas – I was
an intern at a local studio, and I exchanged free studio time for a space on their couch for a few months - and on one occasion, one of them
listened to ‘Boys Don’t Cry’ for around 36 hours straight. That struck me as being ‘serious’ … I eventually met a number of Bowie fans who
would be in the same league.
Though I was aware of the band early on, I got more into them in the latter part of the 80’s, around the time of ‘Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me.’
From that point I tended to follow most of their releases pretty closely. I was a big fan of ‘Disintegration’ (though I’ve lost that CD twice
for some reason!) as well as ‘Wish.’ On the production side, I really loved the records they did with Dave Allen. I always felt they didn’t
sound like anyone else out there, which is something I always find attractive.
I’ve never really had a real ‘wishlist’ as far as bands I’d like to work with. If I had, the Cure would have surely been on it … I simply
never would have imagined I’d have the opportunity to do something with them.
Whose idea to bring in Reeves Gabrels for the session? Can you describe his working methodology?
It turned out that Reeves was going to be in London at the same time we were - the Bowie band were on the ‘Earthling’ tour that summer, and
they just happened to be taking a small break in London. Reeves really wanted to come hang with us, so I told him to come on over. I might
have also mentioned that bringing a guitar wouldn’t be a bad idea.
Of course, one thing led to another and Reeves ended up playing on the track. I’m pretty sure that was Roberts’ intention all along! He was
a big fan of Reeves’, as it turned out. It was a bit of an unusual session for Reeves, as he’d usually plunk down a couple of parts and we’d
pick and choose from those. On this session, due to the time factor as well as the track being in somewhat of a fluid state, we decided to
play it safe and cover all the bases. So, Reeves put down something like seven takes of guitar, varying wildly in style and sound … due in
large part to Robert egging him on, to get more and more musically out there. He was obviously enjoying just watching Reeves play.
I've read that the session itself was short but sweet: is that your recollection, too? Any memorable anecdotes from the session?
The session was indeed short, but very sweet. My management laid out the scenario for me: I was to fly to London for a few days and track
and mix a song with the band. Once I got there, I found out different - the song they wanted to do, ‘Wrong Number,’ already existed, and we
were going to find a new direction for it. He’d already done versions of ‘Wrong Number’ with Mark Saunders and Adrian Sherwood … and now it
was my turn! This dashed my expectations of getting the entire band in the studio and putting down a brand spanking new Cure song, but no
matter (besides, I would get to do that exactly four years later).
At first Robert was just looking for a remix, a different take on the track in its present form. At the same time, he really liked the
previous attempts of the song but didn’t think he’d cracked the definitive version yet. So, we started off by deciding what elements we
liked from the other versions and worked off of those. We then put a new beat in place, based on sampled loops of the Cure’s drummer,
Jason Cooper. We revamped the structure significantly, though we didn’t settle into a final arrangement just yet. We also added a few
new keyboard parts and effects. Right around then Reeves showed up and cut his gazillion guitar tracks. After he finished, I hunkered
down over the computer for five hours or whatever to sift through what we had – and then we had the track.
Then it was time for the real fun. Since the track was so different we needed to do the vocals over. When Robert began to sing, I was
really blown away – it’s always amazing to record somebody’s voice, but when a voice like Robert’s comes out of the speakers, it’s a
whole other ballgame. I started jumping up and down, beaming – saying ‘It’s Robert Smith! It’s Robert Smith!’ to nobody in particular.
Robert actually asked me what the problem was! I had to tell him how fantastic the whole thing was for me. His reply was something along
the line of ‘Really? Nobody ever gets excited when I sing!’ I thought it was sweet.
As a final footnote to the song, Robert wanted a woman to say ‘you’ve got the wrong number,’ sort of like an American telephone operator,
at one spot near the end of the song. We figured we’d call somebody we knew in America or Canada and ask for somebody we knew wouldn’t be
there, and we’d (with luck) get the appropriate response. It sounds easy, but it took forever! Some people would say ‘wrong number’ in the
wrong tone, some would say something entirely different, and some would simply hang up. Finally, I found the number of a friend of mine
from high school who I knew was married, and whose wife I figured might be home. I gave Robert the number, he called, we rolled tape – and
that was it.
I had an absolute blast with them. They took me into their world from the minute I got to the studio (Whitfield St. Studios, off of
Tottenham Court Road near Soho). Before going to work, we all went out to eat at a little Italian restaurant across the street. All
the guys, without exception, ordered beer. As we were at an Italian restaurant I figured I’d have a glass of red wine, so I asked for one.
A hush fell over the table, and Robert says to me, very slowly and carefully, ‘are you really having wine?’ Somewhat nervously, I say yes,
I am – and he orders me my very own bottle.
Also, as we pretty much worked overnights, I stayed on New York time the entire trip – I never had to adjust to London time.
Did you think the song turned out as both you and Robert Smith hoped? How different was it from the demo?
I think it turned out better than we’d hoped … it became the single! It was much, much different from either of the versions he’d recorded
up to that point. The Adrian Sherwood version was fairly ‘dubby,’ with horns and female backing vocals – and this was miles from where we
landed. We were a lot more rock in the end.
What do you think Robert looks for in a producer: a collaborator or a yes-man-cum-engineer? How does his approach in the studio compare
with someone like David Bowie?
I think Robert looks for somebody to help him keep the project moving forward – after all, he knows how to make records, he knows his
own voice, and he has a vision of what he wants in the end. He just needs a sounding board along the way, a person who can help him try
things out but also keep the project in focus, and be honest with him when something isn’t working. He also seems to look for people with
their own sonic imprint or sensibility, who can add what they do to what the Cure does, and take it someplace a little different. It was
a very similar feeling to working with Bowie, where you’ve got an artist who is really on top of it but who wants what you’ve got to offer,
as well as some help driving the bus.
Did you maintain contact after 'Wrong Number'? Had you hoped to work together again? What's your take on the last two albums, Bloodflowers
and The Cure?
After ‘Wrong Number’ I’d see or speak to Robert a couple of times a year. Of course, I would have loved to work with them again, but a
person in my position learns not to count on getting the next gig, as various factors come into play – perhaps they want a different sound,
or they’re already committed to somebody, etc. As it turned out I did work with them again a few years later, on a few tracks for their 2001
Greatest Hits package, as well as on Earl Slick’s solo record ‘’Zig Zag,’ where Robert contributed the song ‘Believe.’ I think ‘Bloodflowers,’
and ‘The Cure’ are both fine albums. Would they had been different had I worked on them? Absolutely. Not necessarily better or worse, just
different.
It wasn't quite the hit single that Robert had expected: any explanation for that? Regardless, how does the song sit with you a few years
down the line?
There are a hundred explanations for why something is or isn’t a hit. In the end it’s down to luck, timing, the moon, whatever. All you can
do is put your best work forward and hope that the rest somehow cosmically falls into place. I still think ‘Wrong Number’ is a great track –
Robert’s vocal is outstanding, the guitars are twisted, and the song takes chances. It’s an awesome miniature event.
There were something like eight mixes of the song: how many were you involved with? Do you have a personal favourite?
My favourite version is the one I did in London with Robert and the band, which became the single. I worked on two additional remixes in New
York, which I thought were cool but were much more stripped down and beat-centric. The London version strikes me as being the most ‘song’
like of any of the versions.
Yes, this is pretty accurate. Robert was part of Bowie’s 50th Birthday concert at Madison Square Garden in January 1997. He performed two songs with David – ‘The Last Thing You Should Do’ from ‘Earthling,’ and the classic ‘Quicksand’ from ‘Hunky Dory.’ They were both stellar; genuine highlights of the gig. After the show there was a huge party downtown at the loft of artist Julian Schnabel, where most of the cast and crew gathered once we were done with our respective duties. Though Robert had rehearsed with David and the other guest artists before the gig, we didn’t actually meet until this party. And what a meeting it was.
The Birthday Show was probably the heaviest production I’d played a part in up to that point in my career. After weeks of preparation, and finally the show itself, it was time to let off some serious steam. The mood at the party was jubilant; all who had been a part of the show, and a few extra celebrity friends, were in attendance. So, I liberally sampled the various libations on offer, and made the rounds with DB guitarist Reeves Gabrels. By the time I got to Robert’s end of the room, where he was camped out at a table with director Tim Pope, I was out-and-out shitfaced. In all honesty, if I hadn’t been in that state I probably wouldn’t have found the nerve to approach him. I broke the ice by asking Robert about the video to ‘Lullaby,’ where he becomes a spider. I tried to get him to tell me what made him think up such a thing, and what it was like to have all those legs and what not – all the while trying to keep my composure in the face of overwhelming drunken giddiness.
He and Tim probably thought I was bonkers. They probably still do.
Would you consider yourself a serious Cure fan? If so, are there specific records you've enjoyed both as a fan and as a producer? Was the Cure on a wishlist of bands for you as a producer?
I would call myself a fan, but maybe not a serious one. When I started out I lived for a time with an all-female band in Dallas, Texas – I was an intern at a local studio, and I exchanged free studio time for a space on their couch for a few months - and on one occasion, one of them listened to ‘Boys Don’t Cry’ for around 36 hours straight. That struck me as being ‘serious’ … I eventually met a number of Bowie fans who would be in the same league.
Though I was aware of the band early on, I got more into them in the latter part of the 80’s, around the time of ‘Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me.’ From that point I tended to follow most of their releases pretty closely. I was a big fan of ‘Disintegration’ (though I’ve lost that CD twice for some reason!) as well as ‘Wish.’ On the production side, I really loved the records they did with Dave Allen. I always felt they didn’t sound like anyone else out there, which is something I always find attractive.
I’ve never really had a real ‘wishlist’ as far as bands I’d like to work with. If I had, the Cure would have surely been on it … I simply never would have imagined I’d have the opportunity to do something with them.
Whose idea to bring in Reeves Gabrels for the session? Can you describe his working methodology?
It turned out that Reeves was going to be in London at the same time we were - the Bowie band were on the ‘Earthling’ tour that summer, and they just happened to be taking a small break in London. Reeves really wanted to come hang with us, so I told him to come on over. I might have also mentioned that bringing a guitar wouldn’t be a bad idea.
Of course, one thing led to another and Reeves ended up playing on the track. I’m pretty sure that was Roberts’ intention all along! He was a big fan of Reeves’, as it turned out. It was a bit of an unusual session for Reeves, as he’d usually plunk down a couple of parts and we’d pick and choose from those. On this session, due to the time factor as well as the track being in somewhat of a fluid state, we decided to play it safe and cover all the bases. So, Reeves put down something like seven takes of guitar, varying wildly in style and sound … due in large part to Robert egging him on, to get more and more musically out there. He was obviously enjoying just watching Reeves play.
I've read that the session itself was short but sweet: is that your recollection, too? Any memorable anecdotes from the session?
The session was indeed short, but very sweet. My management laid out the scenario for me: I was to fly to London for a few days and track and mix a song with the band. Once I got there, I found out different - the song they wanted to do, ‘Wrong Number,’ already existed, and we were going to find a new direction for it. He’d already done versions of ‘Wrong Number’ with Mark Saunders and Adrian Sherwood … and now it was my turn! This dashed my expectations of getting the entire band in the studio and putting down a brand spanking new Cure song, but no matter (besides, I would get to do that exactly four years later).
At first Robert was just looking for a remix, a different take on the track in its present form. At the same time, he really liked the previous attempts of the song but didn’t think he’d cracked the definitive version yet. So, we started off by deciding what elements we liked from the other versions and worked off of those. We then put a new beat in place, based on sampled loops of the Cure’s drummer, Jason Cooper. We revamped the structure significantly, though we didn’t settle into a final arrangement just yet. We also added a few new keyboard parts and effects. Right around then Reeves showed up and cut his gazillion guitar tracks. After he finished, I hunkered down over the computer for five hours or whatever to sift through what we had – and then we had the track.
Then it was time for the real fun. Since the track was so different we needed to do the vocals over. When Robert began to sing, I was really blown away – it’s always amazing to record somebody’s voice, but when a voice like Robert’s comes out of the speakers, it’s a whole other ballgame. I started jumping up and down, beaming – saying ‘It’s Robert Smith! It’s Robert Smith!’ to nobody in particular. Robert actually asked me what the problem was! I had to tell him how fantastic the whole thing was for me. His reply was something along the line of ‘Really? Nobody ever gets excited when I sing!’ I thought it was sweet.
As a final footnote to the song, Robert wanted a woman to say ‘you’ve got the wrong number,’ sort of like an American telephone operator, at one spot near the end of the song. We figured we’d call somebody we knew in America or Canada and ask for somebody we knew wouldn’t be there, and we’d (with luck) get the appropriate response. It sounds easy, but it took forever! Some people would say ‘wrong number’ in the wrong tone, some would say something entirely different, and some would simply hang up. Finally, I found the number of a friend of mine from high school who I knew was married, and whose wife I figured might be home. I gave Robert the number, he called, we rolled tape – and that was it.
I had an absolute blast with them. They took me into their world from the minute I got to the studio (Whitfield St. Studios, off of Tottenham Court Road near Soho). Before going to work, we all went out to eat at a little Italian restaurant across the street. All the guys, without exception, ordered beer. As we were at an Italian restaurant I figured I’d have a glass of red wine, so I asked for one. A hush fell over the table, and Robert says to me, very slowly and carefully, ‘are you really having wine?’ Somewhat nervously, I say yes, I am – and he orders me my very own bottle.
Also, as we pretty much worked overnights, I stayed on New York time the entire trip – I never had to adjust to London time.
Did you think the song turned out as both you and Robert Smith hoped? How different was it from the demo?
I think it turned out better than we’d hoped … it became the single! It was much, much different from either of the versions he’d recorded up to that point. The Adrian Sherwood version was fairly ‘dubby,’ with horns and female backing vocals – and this was miles from where we landed. We were a lot more rock in the end.
What do you think Robert looks for in a producer: a collaborator or a yes-man-cum-engineer? How does his approach in the studio compare with someone like David Bowie?
I think Robert looks for somebody to help him keep the project moving forward – after all, he knows how to make records, he knows his own voice, and he has a vision of what he wants in the end. He just needs a sounding board along the way, a person who can help him try things out but also keep the project in focus, and be honest with him when something isn’t working. He also seems to look for people with their own sonic imprint or sensibility, who can add what they do to what the Cure does, and take it someplace a little different. It was a very similar feeling to working with Bowie, where you’ve got an artist who is really on top of it but who wants what you’ve got to offer, as well as some help driving the bus.
Did you maintain contact after 'Wrong Number'? Had you hoped to work together again? What's your take on the last two albums, Bloodflowers and The Cure?
After ‘Wrong Number’ I’d see or speak to Robert a couple of times a year. Of course, I would have loved to work with them again, but a person in my position learns not to count on getting the next gig, as various factors come into play – perhaps they want a different sound, or they’re already committed to somebody, etc. As it turned out I did work with them again a few years later, on a few tracks for their 2001 Greatest Hits package, as well as on Earl Slick’s solo record ‘’Zig Zag,’ where Robert contributed the song ‘Believe.’ I think ‘Bloodflowers,’ and ‘The Cure’ are both fine albums. Would they had been different had I worked on them? Absolutely. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.
It wasn't quite the hit single that Robert had expected: any explanation for that? Regardless, how does the song sit with you a few years down the line?
There are a hundred explanations for why something is or isn’t a hit. In the end it’s down to luck, timing, the moon, whatever. All you can do is put your best work forward and hope that the rest somehow cosmically falls into place. I still think ‘Wrong Number’ is a great track – Robert’s vocal is outstanding, the guitars are twisted, and the song takes chances. It’s an awesome miniature event.
There were something like eight mixes of the song: how many were you involved with? Do you have a personal favourite?
My favourite version is the one I did in London with Robert and the band, which became the single. I worked on two additional remixes in New York, which I thought were cool but were much more stripped down and beat-centric. The London version strikes me as being the most ‘song’ like of any of the versions.