I was listening to Earthling last night. I found it very much of its time (and the drum ‘n’ bass elements haven’t aged too well), but, overall,
I thought it was a terrific album, melodic, inventive, surprising, with a real sonic edge. And yet, it’s not given (and was not given) too many
plaudits in the media. How does the album stand up now for you? And, is it right to say that Heathen and Reality are so much better?
I know you worked at one stage with Big Audio Dynamite. Is it right to think that their work may have influenced you and David on Earthling?
First thing, David - I beg to differ somewhat regarding your critique. The jungle underbelly on ‘Earthling,’ while being of its time, is nowhere
near as dated sounding as, say, the big snare drums and synth overload in general of the 1980’s. I hear elements of ‘Earthling’ pop up everywhere -
records, ads, film music, whatever.
Personally, I still love ‘Earthling,’ and not just because I worked on it. I hadn’t listened to it in ages, and it when I did recently it still
sounded fresh - probably because it was done so fast. It was a very ‘first instinct’ kind of record - we really didn’t think too much about it,
and it felt like it just came about on its own. As such, it really captures a moment - which is part of why that record is still such a high point
for me. Of course, I have my favourites - the album version of ‘Dead Man Walking’ is a trip. And ‘Seven Years in Tibet,’ well – that’s just huge!
How can one make a judgement call that ‘Heathen’ or ‘Reality’ are better than ‘Earthling’? Music is far too subjective – in the end, it’s still
all about what floats your personal boat. At least I hope that people still look at music that way.
My work in the early ‘90’s - with Big Audio Dynamite, etc. – pretty much prepared me for what we were going to do on ‘Earthling,’ though of
course I didn’t know it at the time. I’d been doing many records or mixes where I’d be fusing rock and dance elements, trying to get it right.
‘Earthling’ was the culmination of that for me. After that record, I didn’t program for years. I felt like I’d achieved what I’d wanted, and so
I went back to playing guitar in the park.
As a person how did Bowie change from 1996 to the present day, both in terms of his personality, his media image and his music?
David doesn’t seem much different to me from when I met him in April of 1996. Of course, I know him better now – time will do that, you know –
but he seems to be on the same course as he always has, which is to continue to stretch and try different approaches to music, fashion, etc.,
and to laugh while he’s doing it. People in the industry would often say to me ‘you’ve done Bowie – why don’t you move on?” Well, because I know
that I HAVEN’T done Bowie. That story isn’t over yet. The fact that I started out with him as an engineer, ended up as a bandleader, and in
between covered a huge range of musical styles from both behind the desk and in front of an audience, is still startling to me. Where else am I
going to get all that – and watch ‘The Office’ at the same time?
Of course, being a new dad again never hurts, and he’s wearing that extremely well.
Looking back on 'hours...' was the fact that the Reeves/David axis was coming under strain a factor? Or, were there no tensions at the time?
It’s not really my place to comment on the state of my clients’ relationships – after all, I sure wouldn’t appreciate somebody publicly
speculating on the inner workings of one of mine. So, you can piss off with that question!
In reality, I really don’t know. I’ve usually got far too much to do, and have way too much on my own plate, to study the minutiae of my cohorts’ interactions
unless they’re screaming at each other (they weren’t).
I will say that the relationship between all of us was different on that record - primarily due, I thought, to the recording process itself.
It was completely different from ‘Earthling,’ where we set out with a definite goal, definite roles, and got on with it quickly, in one studio,
on a very regular schedule. On ‘hours ….’ David and Reeves began by writing and recording in a few different studios, at various times, with
assorted players and engineers. I wasn’t involved at all until they brought me in to play bass on some of the more completed tracks, after which
they disappeared for a while. They then called me back to assemble and mix it all a couple of months later. Unlike ‘Earthling,’ I didn’t have
much to do with the stylistic side of it, and my own role was a lot different. Interestingly enough, that record did lead me to being in the band.
What has been your function as Bowie’s bandleader? Have you had total control in constructing the live sound, and the arrangements?
My contributions as a bandleader have changed over time. At first – the ‘hours...’ band - I was more like a band manager, making sure we got
through soundchecks, keeping my eye on the recordings, and cueing people when necessary. This grew to where I’d assist with the setlist, suggest
songs to perform (I can claim ‘Ashes!’), finalize song arrangements, recommend live engineers, and translate David’s musical ideas into a live
setting.
I suppose my peak was the ‘Heathen’ tour, when we performed two complete albums - ‘Heathen’ and ‘Low’ – back to back. I had to go back to the
original ‘Low’ multitrack tapes, listen to all the individuaal parts that were recorded, then figure out what was essential and what we could
do without, who was going to play what part, how to pull it all off sonically, etc.
I’d not say I’ve had total control, as I’ve never been one to want it. To me, that would seem to limit the potential of any project. Being a
bandleader has been exactly like being producer– you figure out a suitable musical/sonic direction with the artist, and what needs to be
accomplished to get here; delegate to which musician you think will do the best job; and finally, make sure the environment is optimum to get
the best out of them.
What was the best Bowie band you have played in? My favourite was the Heathen band – brilliant gig in Munich.
I’d say the ‘Heathen’ band was the best overall band, the band that could cover the most musical ground. The three guitarists in that band
(Earl Slick, Gerry Leonard, myself) come from very different stylistic backgrounds, so we could cover just about anything … which comes in
handy when you’re trying to pull off over two entire albums’ worth of such diverse material at any given gig. Add to that the very distinct
Mike Garson, the ultra-versatile Cat Russell (she gets the MVP!) and lest we forget Gail and Sterling, who besides nailing it all down were
also spotted playing keys on some of the more ambient ‘Low’ pieces … I’d say it felt pretty invincible at times!
Still, a lot can be said for the Glastonbury band – the same as the ‘Heathen’ band, but with Emm Gryner and Holly Palmer on backing
vocals/percussion, minus Gerry and Cat. The Heathen band was more capable as far as light and shade, but that Glastonbury band really
rocked. We had Slick, and we played ‘Station to Station’ – enough said there. That band was also the ‘Toy’ band, though eventually we
added Gerry and Lisa (Germano).
Has there ever been a time in the studio when you’ve been at odds with the overall directorial lead given by David?
Of course! All the time … that’s the hallmark of any Bowie session. Typically, you’ll be cruising along and David will want to try something
that, on first impression, would strike you as completely impossible. Luckily, I’ve learned to keep my mouth shut and see these things through,
because 95 percent of the time he’d lead us somewhere I’d never dream of, and I’d end up pleasantly surprised. You’ve got to try everything,
you never know.
What has David’s relationship with his record labels been like?
I can only compare what I’ve seen with my experiences with other artists, and David definitely has more artistic freedom – a LOT more – than
most of the artists I’ve worked with, where I’ve witnessed some of the most tactless intervention and appalling suggestions from bean counters
wearing A&R clothes. They usually don’t try that BS with David.
Does David read his press? And is he affected by negative/positive press notes?
I don’t really know if, or how much of it, he pays attention to! He’s been doing this a long time so I’d have to assume that he’s sussed how
to process both the good and the bad.
Can you tell me in detail, about Toy? Where was it produced? What tracks were recorded? What did it sound like? And why wasn’t it released!?
‘Toy’ was recorded in New York. We rehearsed most of the tunes that would make up the album at the same time we were rehearsing for the
Glastonbury gigs, in May 2000. The concept was to make a record like they used to back in the day – we’d rehearse the songs really well,
then go into a studio and track them as a full band, capturing for the most part the energy of the a live performance - as opposed to the
piecemeal process that most people now associate with record making. The idea was to keep it loose, fast, and not clean things up too much or
dwell on perfection, and so we ended up tracking thirteen songs in around nine days. I’ve long ago misplaced my tracking notes for these sessions
– that was a couple of laptops ago – so I can’t verify what tunes we did, other than to reference what has already been released. At any rate,
Sterling, Gail, Slick, Garson, David and I set up in Studio C at Sear Sound on 48th Street in Manhattan. We’d average around two songs a day –
multiple takes of songs with edits, a couple of overdubs, a little lunch, then move on. I thought it sounded amazing, a very open, alive, joyful
recording. As I said before the Glastonbury band rocked, and it was the perfect group for this hit-and-run type of recording.
We took a long break after the initial tracking sessions, and reconvened at my home studio in the East Village. The first order of business
was to incorporate a couple of new people to add a few alternate colours - multi-instrumentalist Lisa Germano and guitarist Gerry Leonard.
Lisa brought along her bag of toys – violin, mandolin, accordion, etc. – and we let her have a go on everything. We gave Gerry a few songs in
particular to do.
One standout moment from that record was when David wrote ‘Afraid.’ Up to that point in my work with him, David and Reeves were pretty much a
songwriting team. ‘Toy’ was the first record since Reeves’ departure, and we wanted a couple of new songs on there – so, David was going it
alone for the first time in a while. At the time, David was reading a book by Andrew Loog Oldham called ‘Stoned’, where he described locking
up Jagger and Richards until they came up with a decent tune. So … I sent David off to the lounge in the Looking Glass Studios, and told him to
stay there until he was done! Of course, we were just kidding – sort of (he did stay there until he was done.) He also wrote ‘Uncle Floyd’ around
then, which, with a minor modification, became ‘Slip Away’ on ‘Heathen.’
Why didn’t it come out? Beats me! That isn’t my department … though I suspect the change from Virgin to Columbia had something to do with it,
during which time he’d sunk his teeth into ‘Heathen.’
Heathen has gone down as a classic Bowie album. What made it special? Any infos/anecdotes about the making of the record? Did 9/11 have a
huge impact on the making of the record for you and for him?
I think ‘Heathen’ was special because David went back to writing on his own again. I don’t know much about the sessions themselves because my
contribution – ‘Afraid’ – was done during the ‘Toy’ sessions.
As far as 9/11 is concerned … it had an impact had an impact on everyone I know, especially those of us that live here. I think of David as a
New Yorker – he’s one of us now, so lay off him - and I don’t think you can help but be affected on many levels by such a thing happening in
your town. After all, even when you switched off CNN you’d still see the diverted traffic, hear the sirens of the emergency vehicles and the
rumble of huge trucks carting away debris, the fighter jets patrolling overhead … and, you could smell the fires burning for months afterward,
day and night, wondering what exactly you were taking in with each breath. There were constant reminders of death just walking down the street.
I don’t think David would set out to write a ‘9/11 Album’ or anything like that, but I think in ‘Heathen’ you can feel the overall mood of where
we all were during those times. Or, as it happens from time to time, it’s just a coincidence.
What were your favourite big gigs? Glastonbury?
I have a special spot for Net Aid as that was the first time I ever played a stadium. I was so nervous that I thought I’d forget the tunes!
What a buzz - especially now that Wembley no longer exists. Personally, I found Glastonbury to be great, but a bit anti-climactic, as it
followed a couple of truly amazing Roseland gigs – especially the first night, June 16th (I still remember the date - we had a full moon).
That was an absolutely incredible, unforgettable gig. I’d fractured both forearms in a bike accident a month before that (a feat that, by the way,
I just repeated!) so the fact that I recuperated just in time to play that gig, my first with Earl Slick, added a lot to it for me.
On the ‘Heathen’ Tour, there was Nimes. How can you argue with a Roman amphitheatre? I kept picturing lions and gladiators, and yet there I am
with an electric guitar - it gave me the chills. Also, the New York Marathon - five gigs in the five boroughs of New York City. All of them
unique, intimate, and electric, though I’d say the Bronx and Staten Island were my favourites.
Have you been surprised by the attention of Bowie’s very fervent fans?!
Oh yes … many times! Most of them are lovely people, and I’ve made some lasting friends from the people I’ve met at gigs, as well as online.
Some I email regularly, some have sent me their music, and still others I see from time to time in the neighborhood. A few of them are a
little extreme, though that’s not really a problem. Once I was at Lollapalooza, and I somehow got steered over to the mosh pit while Tool
were playing. It was full of their hardcore fans, a tattooed, pierced, angry, crystal methed-out lot - I was a bit scared for my physical
safety, to be honest, which I can’t really say about DB fans.
First thing, David - I beg to differ somewhat regarding your critique. The jungle underbelly on ‘Earthling,’ while being of its time, is nowhere near as dated sounding as, say, the big snare drums and synth overload in general of the 1980’s. I hear elements of ‘Earthling’ pop up everywhere - records, ads, film music, whatever.
Personally, I still love ‘Earthling,’ and not just because I worked on it. I hadn’t listened to it in ages, and it when I did recently it still sounded fresh - probably because it was done so fast. It was a very ‘first instinct’ kind of record - we really didn’t think too much about it, and it felt like it just came about on its own. As such, it really captures a moment - which is part of why that record is still such a high point for me. Of course, I have my favourites - the album version of ‘Dead Man Walking’ is a trip. And ‘Seven Years in Tibet,’ well – that’s just huge!
How can one make a judgement call that ‘Heathen’ or ‘Reality’ are better than ‘Earthling’? Music is far too subjective – in the end, it’s still all about what floats your personal boat. At least I hope that people still look at music that way.
My work in the early ‘90’s - with Big Audio Dynamite, etc. – pretty much prepared me for what we were going to do on ‘Earthling,’ though of course I didn’t know it at the time. I’d been doing many records or mixes where I’d be fusing rock and dance elements, trying to get it right. ‘Earthling’ was the culmination of that for me. After that record, I didn’t program for years. I felt like I’d achieved what I’d wanted, and so I went back to playing guitar in the park.
As a person how did Bowie change from 1996 to the present day, both in terms of his personality, his media image and his music?
David doesn’t seem much different to me from when I met him in April of 1996. Of course, I know him better now – time will do that, you know – but he seems to be on the same course as he always has, which is to continue to stretch and try different approaches to music, fashion, etc., and to laugh while he’s doing it. People in the industry would often say to me ‘you’ve done Bowie – why don’t you move on?” Well, because I know that I HAVEN’T done Bowie. That story isn’t over yet. The fact that I started out with him as an engineer, ended up as a bandleader, and in between covered a huge range of musical styles from both behind the desk and in front of an audience, is still startling to me. Where else am I going to get all that – and watch ‘The Office’ at the same time?
Of course, being a new dad again never hurts, and he’s wearing that extremely well.
Looking back on 'hours...' was the fact that the Reeves/David axis was coming under strain a factor? Or, were there no tensions at the time?
It’s not really my place to comment on the state of my clients’ relationships – after all, I sure wouldn’t appreciate somebody publicly speculating on the inner workings of one of mine. So, you can piss off with that question!
In reality, I really don’t know. I’ve usually got far too much to do, and have way too much on my own plate, to study the minutiae of my cohorts’ interactions unless they’re screaming at each other (they weren’t).
I will say that the relationship between all of us was different on that record - primarily due, I thought, to the recording process itself. It was completely different from ‘Earthling,’ where we set out with a definite goal, definite roles, and got on with it quickly, in one studio, on a very regular schedule. On ‘hours ….’ David and Reeves began by writing and recording in a few different studios, at various times, with assorted players and engineers. I wasn’t involved at all until they brought me in to play bass on some of the more completed tracks, after which they disappeared for a while. They then called me back to assemble and mix it all a couple of months later. Unlike ‘Earthling,’ I didn’t have much to do with the stylistic side of it, and my own role was a lot different. Interestingly enough, that record did lead me to being in the band.
What has been your function as Bowie’s bandleader? Have you had total control in constructing the live sound, and the arrangements?
My contributions as a bandleader have changed over time. At first – the ‘hours...’ band - I was more like a band manager, making sure we got through soundchecks, keeping my eye on the recordings, and cueing people when necessary. This grew to where I’d assist with the setlist, suggest songs to perform (I can claim ‘Ashes!’), finalize song arrangements, recommend live engineers, and translate David’s musical ideas into a live setting.
I suppose my peak was the ‘Heathen’ tour, when we performed two complete albums - ‘Heathen’ and ‘Low’ – back to back. I had to go back to the original ‘Low’ multitrack tapes, listen to all the individuaal parts that were recorded, then figure out what was essential and what we could do without, who was going to play what part, how to pull it all off sonically, etc.
I’d not say I’ve had total control, as I’ve never been one to want it. To me, that would seem to limit the potential of any project. Being a bandleader has been exactly like being producer– you figure out a suitable musical/sonic direction with the artist, and what needs to be accomplished to get here; delegate to which musician you think will do the best job; and finally, make sure the environment is optimum to get the best out of them.
What was the best Bowie band you have played in? My favourite was the Heathen band – brilliant gig in Munich.
I’d say the ‘Heathen’ band was the best overall band, the band that could cover the most musical ground. The three guitarists in that band (Earl Slick, Gerry Leonard, myself) come from very different stylistic backgrounds, so we could cover just about anything … which comes in handy when you’re trying to pull off over two entire albums’ worth of such diverse material at any given gig. Add to that the very distinct Mike Garson, the ultra-versatile Cat Russell (she gets the MVP!) and lest we forget Gail and Sterling, who besides nailing it all down were also spotted playing keys on some of the more ambient ‘Low’ pieces … I’d say it felt pretty invincible at times!
Still, a lot can be said for the Glastonbury band – the same as the ‘Heathen’ band, but with Emm Gryner and Holly Palmer on backing vocals/percussion, minus Gerry and Cat. The Heathen band was more capable as far as light and shade, but that Glastonbury band really rocked. We had Slick, and we played ‘Station to Station’ – enough said there. That band was also the ‘Toy’ band, though eventually we added Gerry and Lisa (Germano).
Has there ever been a time in the studio when you’ve been at odds with the overall directorial lead given by David?
Of course! All the time … that’s the hallmark of any Bowie session. Typically, you’ll be cruising along and David will want to try something that, on first impression, would strike you as completely impossible. Luckily, I’ve learned to keep my mouth shut and see these things through, because 95 percent of the time he’d lead us somewhere I’d never dream of, and I’d end up pleasantly surprised. You’ve got to try everything, you never know.
What has David’s relationship with his record labels been like?
I can only compare what I’ve seen with my experiences with other artists, and David definitely has more artistic freedom – a LOT more – than most of the artists I’ve worked with, where I’ve witnessed some of the most tactless intervention and appalling suggestions from bean counters wearing A&R clothes. They usually don’t try that BS with David.
Does David read his press? And is he affected by negative/positive press notes?
I don’t really know if, or how much of it, he pays attention to! He’s been doing this a long time so I’d have to assume that he’s sussed how to process both the good and the bad.
Can you tell me in detail, about Toy? Where was it produced? What tracks were recorded? What did it sound like? And why wasn’t it released!?
‘Toy’ was recorded in New York. We rehearsed most of the tunes that would make up the album at the same time we were rehearsing for the Glastonbury gigs, in May 2000. The concept was to make a record like they used to back in the day – we’d rehearse the songs really well, then go into a studio and track them as a full band, capturing for the most part the energy of the a live performance - as opposed to the piecemeal process that most people now associate with record making. The idea was to keep it loose, fast, and not clean things up too much or dwell on perfection, and so we ended up tracking thirteen songs in around nine days. I’ve long ago misplaced my tracking notes for these sessions – that was a couple of laptops ago – so I can’t verify what tunes we did, other than to reference what has already been released. At any rate, Sterling, Gail, Slick, Garson, David and I set up in Studio C at Sear Sound on 48th Street in Manhattan. We’d average around two songs a day – multiple takes of songs with edits, a couple of overdubs, a little lunch, then move on. I thought it sounded amazing, a very open, alive, joyful recording. As I said before the Glastonbury band rocked, and it was the perfect group for this hit-and-run type of recording.
We took a long break after the initial tracking sessions, and reconvened at my home studio in the East Village. The first order of business was to incorporate a couple of new people to add a few alternate colours - multi-instrumentalist Lisa Germano and guitarist Gerry Leonard. Lisa brought along her bag of toys – violin, mandolin, accordion, etc. – and we let her have a go on everything. We gave Gerry a few songs in particular to do.
One standout moment from that record was when David wrote ‘Afraid.’ Up to that point in my work with him, David and Reeves were pretty much a songwriting team. ‘Toy’ was the first record since Reeves’ departure, and we wanted a couple of new songs on there – so, David was going it alone for the first time in a while. At the time, David was reading a book by Andrew Loog Oldham called ‘Stoned’, where he described locking up Jagger and Richards until they came up with a decent tune. So … I sent David off to the lounge in the Looking Glass Studios, and told him to stay there until he was done! Of course, we were just kidding – sort of (he did stay there until he was done.) He also wrote ‘Uncle Floyd’ around then, which, with a minor modification, became ‘Slip Away’ on ‘Heathen.’
Why didn’t it come out? Beats me! That isn’t my department … though I suspect the change from Virgin to Columbia had something to do with it, during which time he’d sunk his teeth into ‘Heathen.’
Heathen has gone down as a classic Bowie album. What made it special? Any infos/anecdotes about the making of the record? Did 9/11 have a huge impact on the making of the record for you and for him?
I think ‘Heathen’ was special because David went back to writing on his own again. I don’t know much about the sessions themselves because my contribution – ‘Afraid’ – was done during the ‘Toy’ sessions.
As far as 9/11 is concerned … it had an impact had an impact on everyone I know, especially those of us that live here. I think of David as a New Yorker – he’s one of us now, so lay off him - and I don’t think you can help but be affected on many levels by such a thing happening in your town. After all, even when you switched off CNN you’d still see the diverted traffic, hear the sirens of the emergency vehicles and the rumble of huge trucks carting away debris, the fighter jets patrolling overhead … and, you could smell the fires burning for months afterward, day and night, wondering what exactly you were taking in with each breath. There were constant reminders of death just walking down the street. I don’t think David would set out to write a ‘9/11 Album’ or anything like that, but I think in ‘Heathen’ you can feel the overall mood of where we all were during those times. Or, as it happens from time to time, it’s just a coincidence.
What were your favourite big gigs? Glastonbury?
I have a special spot for Net Aid as that was the first time I ever played a stadium. I was so nervous that I thought I’d forget the tunes! What a buzz - especially now that Wembley no longer exists. Personally, I found Glastonbury to be great, but a bit anti-climactic, as it followed a couple of truly amazing Roseland gigs – especially the first night, June 16th (I still remember the date - we had a full moon). That was an absolutely incredible, unforgettable gig. I’d fractured both forearms in a bike accident a month before that (a feat that, by the way, I just repeated!) so the fact that I recuperated just in time to play that gig, my first with Earl Slick, added a lot to it for me.
On the ‘Heathen’ Tour, there was Nimes. How can you argue with a Roman amphitheatre? I kept picturing lions and gladiators, and yet there I am with an electric guitar - it gave me the chills. Also, the New York Marathon - five gigs in the five boroughs of New York City. All of them unique, intimate, and electric, though I’d say the Bronx and Staten Island were my favourites.
Have you been surprised by the attention of Bowie’s very fervent fans?!
Oh yes … many times! Most of them are lovely people, and I’ve made some lasting friends from the people I’ve met at gigs, as well as online. Some I email regularly, some have sent me their music, and still others I see from time to time in the neighborhood. A few of them are a little extreme, though that’s not really a problem. Once I was at Lollapalooza, and I somehow got steered over to the mosh pit while Tool were playing. It was full of their hardcore fans, a tattooed, pierced, angry, crystal methed-out lot - I was a bit scared for my physical safety, to be honest, which I can’t really say about DB fans.